Sunkan,

Thanks for recommending the blog!

Anand

Double blind studies are teh gold standard for certain scientific investigation but not all. The interpersonal validity in these [henomena is high; and generalisability is low. 
Your points are correct. What  fascinates me is the experience I had in one place by 2 different people - exactly 25yrs apart.  SOme of the phenomena we observe defies explanation in the current state of our knowledge. From my limited experience of Nadis over the many years - my current view is what I stated! 
I ampoor at looking at blogs. Would be happy to corrrespond on sambandan@aol.com! 
Kind regards,
Sam./ SIdha

Dr.SIdha Sambandan,

I must thank you for personally explaining details of some of your research while commenting in this blog. Would it be accurate and complete if I summarise the findings of 30 years of research by you into Nadi as under:-

a) There are many charlatans and frauds posing as genuine nadi asttrologers [You said, "THey ripped me off by charging me over 2000Rs to tell me very inaacurate things"]

b) According to you, there are "a FEW AUTHENTIC readers - who do HONEST readings".

c) As such, according to you, "THe phenomenon of Nadi astrology exists, and is unique to Hindu Astrology."

d) Despite stating as above, you did conclude, "Much more research is required to reveal the truth". [You had concluded, "Only more research will reveal the truth"]

Fair enough!

I would like some one to carry out further research on the ability of "genuine" nadi astrologers to predict the future (as on the date of reading out the palm leaves). I propose the following methodology:-

a) Locate one or two astrologers who appear prima facie to be "genuine" (and not among the many charlatans).

b) Consider only cases of individuals whose palm leaves have been located "correctly" (based on correct information that can be read out from these about the individual's past, as on the date of reading)

c) From the above short listed set of palm leaves, get a neutral person to prepare a list of "predictions" about the concerned individuals (which can be verified as true or false on a date that is in the future, as on the date of reading out the palm leaves).

d) Do not reveal the details of the above predictions to the concerned individuals or even to the researcer, but have these predictionsput  inside a sealed envelope with dates marked outside on which these envelopes will need to be opened to check if prediction came true.

e) Preserve the above sealed envelopes in a tamper-proof neutral place.

f) On the dates mentioned outside the envelopes, have these opened and then check if the specific "prediction" about the concerned individual came out true or false.

I hope you and others who are involved in "phenomenological investigations and hermaneutics" have no objection to adopting double-blind methodology as above to validate claims. If so, such research will certainly not qualify to be dismissed as pseudoscience...

Anand

Dear Anand,
This came into my email box! As a person who has been interedted in investigating paranormal phenomena, including the Nadis for over 30years - I would like oto make some comments: 
1) Phenomenological investigations and hermaneutics are not Pseudoscience.
2) I am not saying that Nadis are authentic; and Nadi readers are honest. After 30 years of looking into it, I yet do not know. SOmetimes the Journey is more interesting than the destination! 
3) My observations are: THe phenomenon of Nadi astrology exists, and is unique to Hindu Astrology. 
4) THere ARE a FEW AUTHENTIC readers - who do HONEST readings. 
5) It has become an INDUSTRY in India - thanks to all the Tourists and Foreigners who came into the scene! 
6) The authentic readers - will NEVER ask for anything more than your name and Thumb print. 
7) I made a sceond visit to Poosamutthu - in Vaitheesevaran Koil - exactly 25years after having a superb, and accurate reading. To my horror - I realised that my second experience was not only shockingly inasscurate; but I felt that the Govt of India should take action to stop these people from fraudulent behaviour and they should be taxed properly on the income they make by hoodwinking the public. 
8) I was able to prove for the first time; when many years ago - I actually took the digital photograph of the names in my Nadi and got it read independently by another. This was published in the Journal of Humanities of Sri Lanka, with my friend Prof.Arsekularatne. Shashikant was fully aware of it. But I found it amusing that when I wrote to Sashi about my second experience in Feb 2008 - I did not even have an acknowledgement!! 
9) I am certain of one experience - THey ripped me off by charging me over 2000Rs to tell me very inaacurate things. On this 2nd occasion the arrogant guy - asserted that I had to give him the date ; time; and place of birth!!!  WHen asked why, he showed his book - and said " we take it from everybody" "This is Nadi". He did not know that I hae been resarching it for over 30years!
THe entire consulatation was done by a person, who was fishing for clues by asking various questions. Despite getting the names right - on this occasion by vowels etc - even the past and present had soem fundamental mistakes. I let hims record and say it anyway. After he completed it; I actually told him - how sad I felt that after 25yrs - people like him are doing injustice due to their avarice for money! I told him that my eldest daughter died in 2006! HE was "reading" as though she was alive. It was a good thing that I did not get the 4,000.00 reading!!!! 

It is a pity that the Govt does not put an end to these types of Charletans. WHat is interesting is that one of the many Nadi readers I have been too - one of the most authentic ones 25years ago - has now turned into a useless team of people, greedy for money and hoodwinking Foreigners likemyself. 

The powers that be should regulate these people - to publicly have their fes on Board; give a receipt for each client and declare their earnings for Taxes, like any other business. ut, I must say - I have been fortunate to meet some honest, sincere readers, and ONE even gave me the leaf to keep - as it was intended by the Rishes, THe current commercial readers will never part with the leaves. 

I am not interested in teh age of the leaf. WHat I could not dind the answer to; is why a leaf in India - should have the names of a person born in Sri Lanka and his wife's name "Joephine" - latter being born in England! I was able to personally decipher my wif's name in Old Tamil - as I was able to read the "So" and "Sa". 

Only more research will reveal the truth.
Best wishes,
Dr.SIdha Sambandan.FRCS;FRCGP;FHEA
sambandan@aol.com
sidha.sambandan@nhs.net

Saravanan,

I visited the link you gave. I see that Dr. Jayant Narlikar had made the following VERY RELEVENT points in his response to Shashikant Oak:-

"1.  Till now, I have never come across a single case of predictions, which proved to be exactly true. Even your own experience and of others' instances quoted in your book also point to the same conclusion."

 2. Much talked about predictions by Nostradamus, clothed in esoteric phraseology, are usually wishfully twisted and interpreted as uncanny forecasts of certain subsequent happenings. They appear to have been inferred as the truth when the actual happening are compared with the uttering of Nostradamus. The same is the case with Naadi predictions.

3. It is impossible to imagine that Naadi records on palm leaves are already available for all human beings born or unborn. Even if it is presumed that those forecasts are true, then in that case based on the number of Naadi leaves one should be able to foretell the population of India in year 2000, 2010, 2050 etc.

4. If it is presumed that some body's predictions have been recorded in advance, then why is one asked to propitiate the gods to ward off evil predictions? Here it constitutes a head-on collision of two superstitions.

5. If the scientific veracity of predictions on palm leaves is to be established it cannot be based on testing merely on my sample of past and future alone. A thousand or two thousand samples of Naddi readings will have to be possibly investigated, based on objective parameters before arriving at any conclusion."

Not one of these points have been responded to by Oak or Galatge. Instead, they go on to give photograph of what is claimed to be one Nadi Leaf "with Tamil & English line by line translation" that contains the word, "Shashikantha"! What does THIS photograph and translation prove? NOTHING.

Oak and Galatg are definitely not fools who are misled. They come out as dishonest people with no respect for truth.

Anand

Saravanan,

No, my offer is NOT for "anyone show the 1000 year palm". Had I done that, I may have lost the bet! There is nothing miraculous about palm leaves and other articles having survived for thousands of years. I am not contesting the age of the palm leaves.

What I do contest is that the Nadi Astrologers can make "predictions of the type that cannot be made using mainstream scientific knowledge" -- using new palm leaves, old palm leaves or by any other astrological method! Let me quote myself:-

"I offered Saravanan Rs 10 Lakh if he provides a list of 10 specific (non vague and clearly verifiable) future predictions by nadi astrologers, and if ALL these come true in the coming days/ months/ years. I extend this offer to anyone else too. I have a feeling no one will accept. No prizes for guessing why!"

No, the reason you are not taking up this challenge is NOT that you do not need the money. You are free not to take the money if you don't want it -- just produce the list (as above) to show that Nadi astrolgers can make reasonably accurate predictions of the type that cannot be made using mainstream scientific knowledge.

The reason you don't take this up is because, deep down, you know perfectly well that your own claims about Nadi astrology will NOT survive scrutiny...

Thanks for acknowledging that I am clever. Yes, it does take cleverness to expose fraud...

Anand

you are so clever that you will give money if anyone show the 1000 year palm leaf that is scribbled with script. ha ha ha!!! even after i told you that age of palm leaf is not important at all. all we need to care about is how they did it and its content., i know there is no 1000 year old palm leaf. only thing that prove nadi astrology is thousands of year old is the language written in it.yes the old tamil , old tamil is not in use now. the language written in palm leaf is very old. what do you say for this.
   

i dont need your money . i already have lot of money.

i still say just experience it.

 this is another interesting link this is will help you. 

 http://naadiguruonweb.org/naadi_astrology_a_hoax.html

I need to add that my challenge is for predictions of the type that cannot be made using mainstream scientific knowledge.

I can easily predict that tomorrow the sun will rise in the east -- as also the exact date when there would be a total solar eclipse over India in the coming years.

I would also exclude predictions of events that are highly probable -- such as that a mango seed buried in sand will grow into a mago tree, and not an apple tree. Or that a child to be born will have five fingers on each hand.

My offer is not valid for predictions of the type that any intelligent human being can make -- with high degree of assurance that these will come out true.

Anand

Krishnan Bala,

Okay, so the palm leaves that are now "searched" by the nadi astrologers are NOT thousands of years old! These are merely recent copies of originals that are claimed to be thousands of years old.

Thus the CLAIM that this was scribbled by ancient sages thousands of years can in no way be verified. How convenient!

No, I do not agree that "we are only disputing the contents and the modus operandi". I am also disputing the claim that these are copies of orginals that are thousands of years old. There is simply no verifiable evidence for this unlikely claim. Right?

I have absolutely no interest in personally checking out the impropbable claims regarding nadi astrology -- because there is nothing in the experiences as narrated by you (and others) that cannot be replicated by ordinary tricksters.

I would definitely go for a magic show by PC Sorcar Jr., if this comes to town. I will do this because I always enjoy a good magic performance. I do not think the nadi astrologers can provide me even the entertainment of a good magic trick ....

I offered Saravanan Rs 10 Lakh if he provides a list of 10 specific (non vague and clearly verifiable) future predictions by nadi astrologers, and if ALL these come true in the coming days/ months/ years. I extend this offer to anyone else too. I have a feeling no one will accept. No prizes for guessing why!

Anand

Dear Anand,       
                         You are now coming some where near the meeting ground.But you have to stop asking for the moon i.e. the 1000 year old manuscript that does not exist in our discussion. What is under circulation are the copies as already clarified which are supposed to be exact texural replica.. That shouild do, because we are only disputing the contents and the modus operandi. You are not lending any credence to our personal experience. It is o.k. We do not boast to be posessing a skeptical mind for validating a simple day to day event. I am not interested in your one lakh and I am also sure that Saravanan also is not  over-awed by your munificient offer. The point to be proved is purely academic and every body will be richer of the experience whether proved right or wrong.Just tell us any time you are in Chennai next, and we will  take you to any of the practitioner of your choice (there are so many doing this lucrative job now) and all the doubts that you have entertained will be set to rest unless again you wish to have another skeptical examination of the experience. As I will be in Chennai between 16th and 20th only of this month after which I will be abroad for a long time,Mr.Saravanan, I hope,  may help you out in this matter.